tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post2137982270935180439..comments2024-03-13T09:23:16.861-06:00Comments on Rubicon Days: Monday Musings: Why Positive Reinforcement Training Was the Right Choice For MeLara Elizabethhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16661093611286883883noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-65953383899677645052014-03-04T11:15:56.267-07:002014-03-04T11:15:56.267-07:00It really can be so confusing trying to get to the...It really can be so confusing trying to get to the root emotion of the problem (fear, frustration or aggression). I believe Ruby is at heart a true "frustrated greeter" and for that reason, although she appears to be a Tasmanian Devil, she doesn't redirect on me. Sometimes she seems almost grateful to have the security of me picking her up. It's like she doesn't know what to do with herself. In every instance where she's been allowed to meet and interact with other dogs, she does very well and only wants to play. Lara Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661093611286883883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-44960495762990078072014-03-04T11:06:01.809-07:002014-03-04T11:06:01.809-07:00I'm glad that though Ruby's reactions are ...I'm glad that though Ruby's reactions are pretty bad, she's not so red-case that she's redirecting onto you. A Jack Russell mix in our class would redirect, as in bite, his owner when he got worked up. It's always helpful to consider the whole spectrum of dog reactivity and realize your dog could actually be a bit worse, you know? Anyway, that's horrible that the daycare center made matters worse. Delilah isn't reactive but she is very fearful also, and we can only get responses from her if we talk in a very peppy, friendly manner. She came to us so shy, and we would be devastated if anyone set back her progress with the slightest ounce of meanness. Spartacus is anxious and probably insecure, but I've only seen truly fearful body language from him a handful of times in three years. Diagnosing his personality is so confusing. <br />Ruby is lucky to have someone advocating for her and working patiently to help her overcome her fears. We look forward to following your progress, including the set-backs that we know all too well!Chill Out Spartacushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16663400864380724094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-81273032559729468552014-03-04T07:57:19.041-07:002014-03-04T07:57:19.041-07:00It really is encouraging to see more and more trai...It really is encouraging to see more and more trainers using brain over brawn - we are so proud of our intelligence, after all... I hope Preacher Man will realize that you are listening no matter what and find his inside voice :) Lara Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661093611286883883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-41498367914662572532014-03-04T07:54:47.449-07:002014-03-04T07:54:47.449-07:00Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply! I agree w...Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply! I agree with you that the backing up does not sound particularly aversive - having come from a background of horse training, that sort of use of personal space/body blocking could be underutilized in dog training. I'm lucky that Ruby is small enough to make picking her up an option - it's really saved us in some sticky situations. Her reactivity is extreme and I'd be in serious trouble if she was a large, powerful dog. I also agree with you that if these other methods are saving dogs from the shelter fate, it's the lesser evil. I've accepted Ruby's issues and while I hoped to not have another reactive dog, I've dealt with it before and know that it isn't the end of the world. Reactivity and pure positive makes for a long road, and one that is sometimes one step forward, two steps back, but Ruby is such a sensitive, fearful girl that I know any sort of punishment or rough treatment would likely permanently damage her. She was "gotten after" at her daycare where they employ CM type methods (I found too late, and will never know the full story as we of course never went back) and that incident unfortunately coincides with the emergence of her reactivity to people. Lara Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661093611286883883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-14256126776536412052014-03-04T07:37:44.835-07:002014-03-04T07:37:44.835-07:00Hi Lara,
I totally hear you that the "balance...Hi Lara,<br />I totally hear you that the "balanced" approach is going to ethically conflict with all positive training. I understand 100% where you are coming from, and while I'm still navigating the world of training philosophies, I prefer to work with only positive interactions with my dogs who I adore. Our training center does not fall anywhere on the extreme of any particular ideology. They offer an all positive class but not for reactive dogs. The trainer we worked with advocated the importance of rewards and avoiding punishment, as opposed to, say, Cesar Millan. She never mentioned choke chains or shock collars. She's actually trying to put together a clicker course for reactive dogs if there's enough interest. I think given the short amount of time of a training class for reactive dogs and considering many people would probably not be able to seek further training for financial reasons, etc, she wanted to give us enough tools to manage our reactive dogs rather than seeing them end up at the pound. Using some aversive techniques seems to have quicker results, and if it keeps dogs from the pound, I still see value in it.<br />Picking up Spartacus when he's reacting is impossible, and before we took this class, we've been in situations where he accidentally hurt us while reacting. Not to mention, a strong dog lunging at something tightens the leash on themselves when they pull forward, and Spartacus ignores that sensation completely when he's reacting. The method we were taught to back our dogs up saves his throat a lot of struggle compared to how we would act uninterrupted, if that makes sense. We haven't been able to find a better way to interrupt him mid-barking, growling, lunging, and a toy doesn't seem like a good option for him when he's already so over stimulated. Ideally, we can back him up without any pressure on the leash, which I don't think is considered aversive but maybe I'm wrong.<br />I'm reading The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell and am trying to find a copy of Click to Calm by Emma Parsons, so I'm clearly really interested in phasing out all punishment techniques. Hearing you talk about an all positive approach is very inspiring and it sounds like you are making a lot of progress with it!Chill Out Spartacushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16663400864380724094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-75338793909396490092014-03-04T05:32:25.474-07:002014-03-04T05:32:25.474-07:00Great blog and an fluid topic. I see so much evolu...Great blog and an fluid topic. I see so much evolution in the horse/dog training world. Lots of us were raised in a more violent way and seeing positive training methods pushes all sorts of old psychological buttons in ourselves. And then this one big thing: Training is an ART. So is patience. (I tell myself with a new rescue who has a high sharp bark and isn't afraid to use it.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-51454925014022112892014-03-03T14:37:51.372-07:002014-03-03T14:37:51.372-07:00If a trigger surprises or sneaks up on us, we util...If a trigger surprises or sneaks up on us, we utilize emergency U-turns and in extreme situations, I pick Ruby up (and am lucky she's small enough to do so). Ruby also ignores treats when she is in the height of a reaction, and of course in some instances there is tension on the leash when we are trying to make our escape, which is not perfectly force-free. We are at the stage now where avoidance and management is working the best for us - while I want to keep moving forward I have to keep a balance between progress and stress for us both. I don't often take the clicker on walks (one more thing to juggle) but I'm going to start experimenting with that, and also with her favorite tug toy, which is a huge motivation for her and one I've used instead of food to teach some tricks. Lara Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661093611286883883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-59681651125787095142014-03-03T13:14:32.549-07:002014-03-03T13:14:32.549-07:00I want to clarify that I didn't mean your clas...I want to clarify that I didn't mean your class seemed that way or that the method you describe to increase distance was terribly aversive, I just notice some trainers that use some of the tools I described such as e-collars are touting themselves as "balanced" now that people are becoming more aware of the terminology. Lara Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661093611286883883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-28159768513515153802014-03-03T12:43:46.554-07:002014-03-03T12:43:46.554-07:00I have to admit that I sort of object to the "...I have to admit that I sort of object to the "Balanced" label on training methods because I find it is often a way to sneak in more aversive methods and also paints pure-positive as some sort of wacky extreme. The daycare I took Ruby to, who I too-late found out subscribed to dominance-theory and believe played a part in Ruby's reactivity surfacing, scoffed at me when I said I used clicker-training. Nothing is black and white of course. If Ruby is chasing the cat and I'm in position to do so, I will physically block her or stop her with my hand. I don't have treats and a clicker on me at all times, but I still always like to ask myself if there is a better, kinder way to get the same result. Lara Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661093611286883883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-32360489399192465802014-03-03T12:24:55.012-07:002014-03-03T12:24:55.012-07:00*when Spartacus gets truly fixated on a trigger, h...*when Spartacus gets truly fixated on a trigger, he ignores his highest value treats for the most part...Chill Out Spartacushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16663400864380724094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-50863762925918117312014-03-03T12:22:24.312-07:002014-03-03T12:22:24.312-07:00We really enjoyed our training class for reactive ...We really enjoyed our training class for reactive dogs, which presented a balanced approach involving plenty of treats and positive reinforcement and also some tools from the more dominance-based training methodologies - for instance, to break a reaction, we step in front of our dog, tighten the leash, and back him up until he is looking at us. This really is not a very harsh action, and it truly helps redirect Spartacus from his trigger and gets him back under threshold instantly. We don't consider this harsh treatment, but we understand others might disagree. Of course, the best measure is to always set our dogs up for success and avoid them ever going over threshold entirely, though it's not always possible. Out of curiosity, how do you use all positive based methods while your dog is reacting?<br />We love the idea of using all positive reinforcement if we can find ways to disrupt Spartacus mid-reaction if you have any suggestions.<br />Thanks!Chill Out Spartacushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16663400864380724094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-43050723160184553442014-03-03T11:06:33.899-07:002014-03-03T11:06:33.899-07:00Right in line with your "Good for the Dog - G...Right in line with your "Good for the Dog - Good for You" theme! Lara Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661093611286883883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-67986272061034973452014-03-03T10:34:31.745-07:002014-03-03T10:34:31.745-07:00Great post. And I appreciate your honesty. Many of...Great post. And I appreciate your honesty. Many of us didn't start out understanding the importance of positive reinforcement. It's what gives me hope that eventually it will be seen as the primary way of training any animal.<br /><br />In truth, behaviorism is proven to be effective in many types of training. It's the most successful treatment of depression in humans, for instance. And yet it's not the treatment of first resort for many.Pamelahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13768027087753712341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-17758891756984190042014-03-03T10:13:42.789-07:002014-03-03T10:13:42.789-07:00I think it's slowly gaining ground, thanks to ...I think it's slowly gaining ground, thanks to some visible professionals and the research that is continually coming out. I really admire anyone who has changed their ways and adopted more positive, progressive methods! When you already have a timid dog, it's just heartbreaking to think of instilling any more fear into their lives. Lara Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16661093611286883883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1943031415851623904.post-60086243778794380612014-03-03T10:08:24.696-07:002014-03-03T10:08:24.696-07:00Love this post! I wish more people would see the ...Love this post! I wish more people would see the benefits of positive training. I haven't always used positive methods. In fact, I grew up with parents who were anything but kind to their dogs in training them. But somehow, even back then, I knew it was wrong. I'm grateful that there are at least a handful of positive reinforcement trainers. I stopped fostering for a rescue group because of the trainer they used who is, basically, a barbarian when training dogs. They frowned on my use of more positive methods for a dog I was fostering who had a lot of issues, some of them beyond what I was capable of helping her with. At one point, I even offered to pay for classes for my foster dog using a trainer that was highly recommended and used only positive methods - the rescue turned my offer down flat. It's a long story and some things happened and I ended up returning the dog to their rescue. <br /><br />I'm glad you, like I, learned from your mistakes and realized how much more beneficial positive reinforcement is in building a loving, give and take relationship with any animal. Blueberry's humanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09939332241280524991noreply@blogger.com